Syllable Forum Index Syllable
Syllable Forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Wailing Wall
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Off-topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Wailing Wall Reply with quote

I think we have a real problem.
I saw the post of Rick (which was deleted) where he expressed some unhappiness.
I saw quite a few people coming to syllable, being interested and then disappearing silently (me partially included).
I don't think that these people leave syllable because suddenly they don't have any free time. It's probably because a dissatisfaction.

I know that you can't hold anyone from going, but you could try to learn from the failures of the past.
People were just going, and nobody from syllable tried to analyze the reasons. I see that people from here a quite polite and silent, it doesn't happen very often to see some criticism. But from criticism you can benefit.

Even when Arno was going nobody was talking about that (only same short statements were made), at least here in the public. This confused me a lot, and perhaps I was not the only one.

A next point is:
Nearby a full year has past without a new official Syllable release, and there is no explication. Nobody from the "lead" developers said: Dear users (members) we have a problem.....
(For example such announcements could be made on the main page)
This lack of information creates confusion, and it gives the impression that things are stagnating ( even if they are not stagnating in reality).
Back to top
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ricks post was deleted because it was totally off-topic and irrelevant to the bug in question. I have no issues with the subject being raised by Rick or anyone else in an appropriate thread, however.

The reason I don't talk about these things if because if someone "leaves silently" there is very little to talk about: I can't make an announcement about Arno if I have no idea why Arno no longer participates in Syllable. People come and people go: that really is the way it has always worked, and works with a lot of Open Source projects. Syllable really is no different in this regard.

Perhaps we could communicate more, but there is a huge workload and making constant announcements and having discussions about this sort of things is a drain on my energy and a distraction. I really don't see the benefit.

In order to "learn from mistakes" someone would first have to tell me what those mistakes are, and I suspect I would also need a small army of developers and volunteers to help me implement everyone's suggestions. That clearly is not going to happen. I have asked these sorts of questions before and never got any particularly helpful feedback.

As for the release, it's been about nine months yes. Due to lack of developers and for personal reasons, basically. We are very close to a release of 0.6.6 but a quick glance at the bugs forum will show that there are a couple of bugs that need to be fixed first.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rohan
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[b]cipri[/b], You totally right.
Need ways to keep up users and programmers interest in project.
Back to top
Jonas



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither Rick or Flemming left "silently". They were cleary unhappy how Syllable is currently handled.

How is Syllable run these days? I have always thought you, Vanders, are the projectleader. To your help you have couple of core developers that helps you make decisions but it have never stoped you from listen to people of the community. If you guys cannot agree, you have, as the role af projectleader, the final saying. This is one of the reasons I joined Syllable. I like this idea and I liked the open dialog with the community. It had a very nice and friendly atmosphere. Unfortunaly I dont think this is true anymore. When someone comes up with a good idea it is immediatly attacked as 1) its not REBOL friendly 2) "you dont know what you talking about."

Now reading a post from Kaj he claims Syllabe to be meritocracy (I admit I had to look up that word) and according to his ranking list he is in charge? I dont understand. When did this happen? How can the number of cvs checkins decide how much "power" you have? doesnt the quality of the checkin in anyway count?

E.g. Kaj and me had a rather intensive discussion on the mailing list regarding how much REBOL there should be in Syllable. I to this day have no idea what you think about the future of Syllable and the REBOL influence. A roadmap written by you and the core developers (ie. not something that Kaj has written by himself) would be very much appricated so I at least know if I think its worth spending more hours on Syllable or not...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2203
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonas, the Ohloh ranking you are talking about is a statistic, not an organisational chart. It means that I have been the person doing the most work on Syllable for the past six years, not that I am the project leader. This is because I decided early on to dedicate myself full-time to the project. I never bothered to put any emphasis on this until the last year, when it became necessary to point this out because it turned out that some people unfortunately don't respect my position and my effort. Vanders is the project leader, but I have a close working relationship with him. As you say, this is a hierarchical organisation with a leader. We have never taken votes like in a democracy. This means that in effect, as most open source projects, Syllable is a meritocracy.

We agree that Syllable is not much fun anymore. This is because the atmosphere has been poisoned for the past year due to these issues and many other, circumstantial ones, and this is why some things need to change.

Dmitry, I have said this before, but there is no problem (anymore) with interest in Syllable. The strategy that we are following has doubled interest in the project overall since a year ago, when we announced that strategy, rolled out new products and rebuilt the websites, and it has doubled again since a month ago, when we released the first production-ready version of Syllable Server and used it to get the project on DistroWatch. It just happens, sadly, that some people don't agree with these changes.

For the past year I have been working full-time on the websites in crisis mode, because they kept falling apart, due to webmasters and even providers leaving. It's only since last week that this work is mostly completed. I know I promised to write a new road map, but I'm not going to make time for that while the websites and new product releases are falling apart. Now it is even said that some people wouldn't be satisfied with a road map written by me. I hope you see the problem here. I'm doing my utmost best to move Syllable forward, but there is just no pleasing some people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]Dmitry, I have said this before, but there is no problem (anymore) with interest in Syllable. The strategy that we are following has doubled interest in the project overall since a year ago, when we announced that strategy, rolled out new products and rebuilt the websites, and it has doubled again since a month ago, when we released the first production-ready version of Syllable Server and used it to get the project on DistroWatch. It just happens, sadly, that some people don't agree with these changes. [/quote]

doubled, in the last year??
So perhaps we should have more developers if the interest has grown so much. And where are the users? Are all these new users so satisfied, that they don't have anything to report?
(I think it's pitty that it came so far, that people got so indifferent, that even bugs are not reported anymore (me included partially) )

[quote]Perhaps we could communicate more, but there is a huge workload and making constant announcements and having discussions about this sort of things is a drain on my energy and a distraction. I really don't see the benefit. [/quote]

The benefit is that the users/developers are better informed about what's going on. If there is no information suspicion and cufusion can appear, and the people could lose their confidence.

[quote]In order to "learn from mistakes" someone would first have to tell me what those mistakes are[/quote]

Perhaps if you ask, you will also get an answer. I'm sure you had contact to Arno, was it so hard to ask him if he could give an statement? Or even a small interview?

[quote]I would also need a small army of developers and volunteers to help me implement everyone's suggestions[/quote]

And do you think it's enought to write on your x-mas wishlist that you want more developers?
For example you could have tried to to include jonas work into syllable.
For example his image-view program.
Or the eFilebrowser. It was me that first porpused that this sould happen and I wondered why no one before me took the opportunity to make this offer. And even then there was no much interest in this idea.
I know Jonas said his eFilebrowser is not ready for syllable. But you could have tried to stimulate him and ask if he could make his program ready for syllable. But your reaction was to that time (a few years ago) quite negative. Or do you want that the people came to you and beg you to include their work to syllable?
So if you practically refuse the wok made by others, you shouldn't wonder that you don't have an "small army".


Last edited by cipri on Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Jonas



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Kaj"]
We agree that Syllable is not much fun anymore. This is because the atmosphere has been poisoned for the past year due to these issues and many other, circumstantial ones, and this is why some things need to change.
[/quote]
Like kicking Rick or what kind of changes are you talking about?

[quote="Kaj"]
For the past year I have been working full-time on the websites in crisis mode, because they kept falling apart, due to webmasters and even providers leaving. It's only since last week that this work is mostly completed. I know I promised to write a new road map, but I'm not going to make time for that while the websites and new product releases are falling apart. Now it is even said that some people wouldn't be satisfied with a road map written by me. I hope you see the problem here. I'm doing my utmost best to move Syllable forward, but there is just no pleasing some people.[/quote]

Thats fine by me if you want to work full time. I dont mind and I frankly doesnt care how much time you spend. Its totally up to you to decide that based on your life situation. Some of us have more time, others have less.

I dont mind if you write the roadmap. But I do mind if it is not approved by the other core developers. That is my point. I do not want Syllable to turn into one man show.

Now, my post was meant Vanders to answer so Im still waiting on his reply.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cipri"][quote]Perhaps we could communicate more, but there is a huge workload and making constant announcements and having discussions about this sort of things is a drain on my energy and a distraction. I really don't see the benefit. [/quote]

The benefit is that the users/developers are better informed about what's going on. If there is no information suspicion and cufusion can appear, and the people could lose their confidence.[/quote]

Sure, but for various reasons (mostly personal) I have little energy at the moment, so you really will have to excuse my lack of proactive communication.

[quote][quote]In order to "learn from mistakes" someone would first have to tell me what those mistakes are[/quote]

Perhaps if you ask, you will also get an answer.[/quote]

I have in the past, as I said.

[quote]I'm sure you had contact to Arno, was it so hard to ask him if he could give an statement? Or even a small interview?[/quote]

Actually no. All attempts to contact Arno failed. I literally have no idea why he stopped contributing to Syllable.

[quote]For example you could have tried to to include jonas work into syllable.
For example his image-view program. [/quote]

I would like to, as it happens, but Jonas himself has said that it is currently incomplete. At the time I was hoping to have had 0.6.6 ready so I didn't want to make changes like integrating new applications. After 0.6.6 I shall look at his image viewer again and we'll see about including it in place of AView.

[quote]Or the eFilebrowser. It was me that first porpused that this sould happen and I wondered why no one before me took the opportunity to make this offer. And even then there was no much interest in this idea.
I know Jonas said his eFilebrowser is not ready for syllable. But you could have tried to stimulate him and ask if he could make his program ready for syllable. But your reaction was to that time (a few years ago) quite negative.[/quote]

Negative? Not that I recall. Jonas himself came forward and said he'd prefer that eFilebrowser was [i]not[/i] including in Syllable as he considers it a "playground" for ideas. We've always planed to improve the desktop & things like FileBrowser during the 0.7 development versions, which is when eFilebrowser will come into play more as it includes a lot of features we need.

[quote]So if you practically refuse the wok made by others, you shouldn't wonder that you don't have an "small army".[/quote]

I have never "practically refused" work just for the hell of it. Stuff is either omitted because it is incomplete, or the author doesn't want it to be included, or it simply does not fit with what we're planing to do with Syllable.

I appreciate that our roadmap has not been particularly clear since the start of 0.6, bit believe it or not we are still working quite closely to the original roadmap we published back in the 0.4/0.5 days.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2203
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think the pattern is clear from these responses. Whatever we do or answer, some people do just not believe what we say. So tell me, what use is it for us to say anything more?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jonas"]Neither Rick or Flemming left "silently". They were cleary unhappy how Syllable is currently handled.[/quote]

Yes, and that's fine. They were unhappy at various things, most of which I won't or do not wish to get into at this point as it would just upset a lot of others.

[quote]How is Syllable run these days? I have always thought you, Vanders, are the projectleader. To your help you have couple of core developers that helps you make decisions but it have never stoped you from listen to people of the community. If you guys cannot agree, you have, as the role af projectleader, the final saying.[/quote]

This is still essentially true, but note that at the same time my own personal workload for Syllable has increased dramatically as I have moved to take up the slack. This has the knock on effect that I have less time for the "administrative" issues, and sadly that also includes my ability to talk to and engage with the community. The only way I can stay sane is to delegate as much work as possible to others, which includes Kaj.

I'd like to say now that Kaj is in fact one of the few developers whom I have been able to delegate work to safe in the knowledge that he will simply get on with the job. Arno and Henrik were the same. This is the main reason why I have never had to act as a voice to Kaj, because he's basically doing what I've asked of him: Builder is a great piece of work, for example, and more than I could have hoped for when I asked him to "sort out" the build process all those years ago!

[quote]When someone comes up with a good idea it is immediatly attacked as 1) its not REBOL friendly 2) "you dont know what you talking about."[/quote]

These seem to be the core themes running through this thread: a) People are unsure of the role of REBOL in Syllable and of REBOL itself and b) We have not communicated our roadmap or our current work clearly to the community.

The first issue I can understand. I think REBOL is a great bit of work and has a lot of potential. However others are clearly unsure. The delay from REBOL Technologies in releasing REBOL 3 has clearly not helped, as we begin to look a bit daft talking about how great it'll be and asking people to delay or change work (like the OpenGL & Cairo stuff) on the basis of something that no one has seen yet.

If people can honestly say that they have looked at REBOL & Orca and have tried it and have serious issues with it then I am prepared to listen to them, but just saying "It's different and I don't like it, lets use [Python|Ruby|COBOL] instead" isn't much use to anyone.

The other issue is clearly something that needs to be sorted, but as I say I have very little energy and find it difficult to motivate myself into doing much right now. I guess this thread is a good start...

[quote]Now reading a post from Kaj...according to his ranking list he is in charge? I dont understand. When did this happen? How can the number of cvs checkins decide how much "power" you have? doesnt the quality of the checkin in anyway count?[/quote]

Kaj has explained it, and if you take it in the context of the argument Rick had started it makes sense. However I agree the original post does perhaps come across in the wrong way to others who may read it.

[quote]I to this day have no idea what you think about the future of Syllable and the REBOL influence.[/quote]

I've touched on it above. I too would like to actually [i]see[/i] a working release of REBOL 3 and the portability stuff so we can actually get to work and see how it all fits together. If RT continue to delay the release of REBOL 3 we will obviously have to re-evaluate REBOL in Syllable to some extent, because at a certain point it will simply be a roadblock to other progress.

Note that does not mean that I am re-evaluating REBOL right now, and as I said nor am I interested in arguments that basically boil down to "It smells different"!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jonas



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Kaj"]Well, I think the pattern is clear from these responses. Whatever we do or answer, some people do just not believe what we say. So tell me, what use is it for us to say anything more?[/quote]

Thats the kind of comment that pollutes the atmosphere of Syllable and make it less fun to work so I ignore it.

Vanders, thank you for your reply. I know that you have a lot to do so I appricate it very much.

It was the reply I was hoping to see from you. My main issues with REBOL is that in fact there is 1) no open source interpreter for it 2) it is not really a open source language 3) nobody knows when or even what REBOL is going to release 4) it holds Syllable back (as you write).

But if you rather wait and see I respect that altough I ask you not to wait too long. We have already been waiting for it for too long if you ask me. But we do not need to start a discussion about it here and now. Thats was not my intention. I think I have made myself clear previously what I think. I mainly wanted to know if you are a diehard fanboy of REBOL or not. Clearly you have a sane of view of REBOL.

Cipri, what Kaj and Vanders write about eFileBrowser is true. I have been the first one to tell people that I dont think EFileBrowser should be included in the base system. However I do once in a while write on my new EFileBrowser which I hope will be much better in almost all aspect. Stay tuned! Wink

Edit: One thing only, have you tested REBOL yourself and find it to have a lot of potential, Vanders or are you basing this on Kajs knowledge?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Jonas"]My main issues with REBOL is that in fact there is 1) no open source interpreter for it[/quote]

There is Orca, which although incomplete does cover a fair amount of the core REBOL language. We already use Orca in Desktop. The main problem with Orca is a lack of a maintainer.

[quote]One thing only, have you tested REBOL yourself and find it to have a lot of potential, Vanders or are you basing this on Kajs knowledge?[/quote]

I have spent some time learning a bit of REBOL and did write a small application with it at one point, so I have had the pleasure of working with it. It really is a very powerful environment once you get used to it. For lower level stuff (Like the portability layer and the graphics stuff) I rely on Kaj to provide the background, as he is much closer to the REBOL community and REBOL 3 development than I am.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cau0730
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay now I am going to butt in.

Vanders: Sorry but you are wrong. You have delegated stuff to me in the past and I got it done. The reason I don't always get something done is I actually have a life. Sorry!! I don't spend every waking moment on Syllable and when I do I like to see results. You have given me in the past goals like fixing glibc code. I don't like doing that, so therefore I take my time on it. For stuff like libsyllable, I and Anthony are the only lead developers left that was making strides on it. Frankly loosing me means working solely on a linux distro, period.


Kaj: Why don't you tell the truth? You have to this day thought that I have been attacking you and that is why you are kicking me out. YOU took this to a personal level and not me. For everyone seeing this.... Kaj has even told the whole community on Altme that I was the reason why he and his girlfriend broke up and it wasn't his fault at all but mine. So sorry, but buzz off.


Community: There is a lot that noone wants to say... Vanders even said it himself that he doesn't want to talk about it as it would piss other people off. Well, doesn't that just make you feel better? I came to Syllable for one common goal... a desktop os that could be different. That is not the case anymore though and that was one of the major reasons both I and Flemming left/am leaving. I never wanted it to come to this, but Vanders seems to think Kaj can take him a different direction... then so be it. One last thing to the community. I am not going anywhere away for OSS. You will all see me around in places Smile

Vanders: consider this the last time I talk to this community. You can delete all my accounts. You lost a good developer. If you ever need to talk you can reach me at [email protected], but please delete me from everything Syllable related.
Back to top
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cau0730"]Vanders: Sorry but you are wrong. You have delegated stuff to me in the past and I got it done. The reason I don't always get something done is I actually have a life.[/quote]

You make the assumption that the rest of us don't, which is clearly not true. You had a habit of starting stuff but never finishing it, and you yourself even admitted that. I suggested stuff like the Glibc additions because you said you wanted to learn more low level & systems stuff.

[quote]Frankly loosing me means working solely on a linux distro, period.[/quote]

That's a load of rubbish and you know it. So far I haven't spent [i]any[/i] of my own time working on Server. The only person who has done any work on that is Kaj, and it has not affected his ability to work on Builder for Desktop at all.

[quote]There is a lot that noone wants to say... Vanders even said it himself that he doesn't want to talk about it as it would piss other people off. Well, doesn't that just make you feel better?[/quote]

People are welcome to say whatever is on their mind, as long as it doesn't get personal. I wont be offended. Feedback is important to me, which is why I'm posting in this thread and trying to answer questions and address peoples concerns. When I said there are things that aren't worth talking about it's because we've moved past those reasons now and it's a waste of time adding them to the mix.

[quote]Vanders seems to think Kaj can take him a different direction... then so be it.[/quote]

It's not like Kaj has dominion over me, or I'm just sat here saying "Dur, O.K!" to every suggestion Kaj makes. Is it so hard to believe that I actually like the ideas that Kaj has about Syllable, which is why I do not object?

[quote]Vanders: consider this the last time I talk to this community. You can delete all my accounts. You lost a good developer. If you ever need to talk you can reach me at [email protected], but please delete me from everything Syllable related.[/quote]

I'll keep in contact, certainly. Just as I said to Flemming, it would be a shame to see you leave completely and I hope you'll stick around Syllable still?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cau0730
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]You make the assumption that the rest of us don't, which is clearly not true. You had a habit of starting stuff but never finishing it, and you yourself even admitted that. I suggested stuff like the Glibc additions because you said you wanted to learn more low level & systems stuff. [/quote]

You have made the same claim. I also do finish a lot of code. I have written time after time what I have done, but let me list it again.

os::ImageButton
os::InputBox
os::FontRequester
os::ColorRequester
os::PopupMenu
A multitude of changes to the appserver
Camera/Switcher/ColdFishRemote/Eyes(Jonas' code just in dockplugin form)/Clipper/WallpaperChanger/Address Dock plugins
dlogin
Sourcery
various fixes to other code.


Not released code:
MusicManager(cause it was a prototype)
Archiver 2.0(only due to the fact that I have changed the implementation)
Downloader(only cause it was changed to libcurl during design changes)
os::Timezone(only cause I was waiting for timezone datafiles)
CalendarView/DateView(only cause I was waiting for whether I was going to continue with Syllable)
os::Random(only cause I was told it wasn't important)
os::Splash(only cause I was told that I had to find a way to make it secure when a user chooses not to use splash screens)
sIDE changes(only cause I found a better way)
libvcard(only cause I was waiting for os::Timezone)

projects that i have helped:
ABrowser(early days)
Desktop
Whisper
sIDE
Many projects with Flemming.
And a multitude of others


[quote]I'll keep in contact, certainly. Just as I said to Flemming, it would be a shame to see you leave completely and I hope you'll stick around Syllable still?[/quote]

Give me a reason. Why should I stick around? I am told that I disrupt Syllable, so why would I be any help? I have always valued your friendship, but that isn't enough. You have always underestimated what I have done for syllable and maybe my leaving will help you change your mind. So I ask again, why should i stick around?
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Off-topic All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group