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cau0730
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh lets not forget that in the 7+ years I have been with syllable I was:

Going to school and working full time
Married my wife and immigrated to Canada where I went to school and worked full time
Had a child and worked and went to school
Have recently just started a job where I code all day and have a 1 year child and a marriage that I have to maintain.


So. lets see... I think I put quite a bit of code out there for someone with a big schedule.
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Jonas



Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Vanders"]
There is Orca, which although incomplete does cover a fair amount of the core REBOL language. We already use Orca in Desktop. The main problem with Orca is a lack of a maintainer.
[/quote]

Well, I know that that ORCA is included with Syllable Desktop. I havent missed that Smile The problem I see is that it lacks a maintainer and now that REBOL will be releasing R3 I think one need to updated ORCA to R3. And as there are no maintainer who will do that? I know that Kaj have said that someone will pick up ORCA and update it but we cannot be sure of that and yet we are still assuming and delaying Syllable because of it. And it will be even more visible if we integrate REBOL/AGG with the AppServer.

I dont mind REBOL as a language. Im sure that both you and Kaj are right that it is a powerful language. That have never been the problem for me. The problem I see it is rather that there is no opensource intepreter that one can use. There are so many truely open sourced languages out there Im sure that there must be a better alternative than REBOL3?
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have said all of this before, but I am effectively the ORCA maintainer now. The reason that I have made few changes and additions to it so far is that we haven't needed them yet, so other work takes priority. ORCA is fine for what we're using it for. By definition we can't use it beyond what it's capable of, and if we want to, we need to improve it for it. So there is an open source interpreter, it works, we're using it, I'm very pleased with it, and it's being maintained according to our specific needs. Syllable is not at all delayed due to ORCA. Rather, we can develop for example the rewritten Packager much quicker now.

I also need to stress again that we will not be integrating REBOL the interpreter with the AppServer and that the considerations for using AGG in the AppServer and for using ORCA are separate, even though their combination leads to the full integration we have always aimed at.
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cipri
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need more transparency and democracy. All users and developers should know what the other are working on.
For example every developer (contributor) should have his own page (or blog) on which he posts evey week a post.
The post should contain for example the following information:
a summary of the work that has been made in that week. And a coarse estimation of the total hours spent on syllable in that week.
The summary should also contain information about the administrativ work that has been made in that week. For example work on the home-page, promotion of syllable,..... and so on.
And it should never happen that nothing is posted in a week. If someone of the devs (contributors) did nothing in that week, then he should write it clearly: I did nothing in that week.

This post should also contain information about the plans of the next week.

I think this is useful, because: perhaps people that say that they do something will be more motivated to do it, after they announced it (of course they also have to be realistic).
And the next advantage is: People will stay tuned to see if the plans meet the reality. And if syllable is stagnating then the users should also know it by reading the posts.

The posts should also contain information about the work made for syllable but which was refused for inclusion by the "main developer".
(In that way, also this "invisible work" will be made visible)

And after each release of Syllable, the registred user of syllable should have the possibility to give votes to the contributor they liked most in that period between new release of Syllable and the old release of Syllable.

In this way the developers will be in a competition. And in competition most people are more productive then elsewhere.

And in this way the developers will see how there work is apprecitated by the others. And we will have a better developer ranking.

At the end of the year for example all ranking points can be summed up, and the one with the most votes (points) will be the "main developer" for the next year.
(On perhaps depending on the results of the ranking the developers could get also other facilities).
And the decision power of the developers should depend on the ranking.
In this way we have kaj's meritocracy based on a democratic system, I think this is fair.

And writing a single post per week about the work done in that week, should not take more than 30 - 60 min.

Summary:
More competition -> more performance.
More transparency -> more satiesfied users.
More democracy -> more satiesfied developers.
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but I don't have time at all for these extra tasks, and they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable. Also, the information you ask for has been available in less formal form for years in our AltME collaboration system. Anyone who wants more insight should look there.
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cipri
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Kaj"]I'm sorry, but I don't have time at all for these extra tasks, and they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable. Also, the information you ask for has been available in less formal form for years in our AltME collaboration system. Anyone who wants more insight should look there.[/quote]

I don't know AltMe, but perhaps, this is not a very transparent sytem.
I think the information about the work/progress should be made very public. People should not hit too much obstacles on getting the information that should be public.

What are 30 min a week (writing a post)? About 5 min a day. Is it really so much?

[quote]they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable[/quote]
Do you really enjoy the current way syllable works?
Perhaps you should make a poll and ask pe user how they enjoy syllable (for exampled compared with the syllable of 3 years ago).

Don't you realize that most syllable fans (or ex-fans) a quite unhappy with the current situation?
Or is it irrelevant for you that other are unhappy with the current situation, as long as you like the current situation?
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cipri"][quote="Kaj"]I'm sorry, but I don't have time at all for these extra tasks, and they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable. Also, the information you ask for has been available in less formal form for years in our AltME collaboration system. Anyone who wants more insight should look there.[/quote]

I don't know AltMe, but perhaps, this is not a very transparent sytem.
I think the information about the work/progress should be made very public. People should not hit too much obstacles on getting the information that should be public.
[/quote]

You don't even know if AltME is transparent or not, because you never tried it. What I'm telling you is that you should make use of the options we are offering you before complaining. If you mean that AltME is not the web, then yes. Just like Syllable is not Linux. We are doing our best to use and create better technology, and this strategy has always extended to our collaboration systems. Nevertheless, we have also long told of our plans to build our own communication systems that, among other things, will integrate the web better. As you know, for the past year I have been building our web content management system, so our public communication is continuously improving.

[quote]What are 30 min a week (writing a post)? About 5 min a day. Is it really so much?[/quote]

I and other people are logging and discussing our work everyday in AltME, which is much more efficient than blogging. Double work is always undesirable and unenjoyable. If you feel this strongly about getting information, why aren't you in AltME? The work you ask for is already being done by many people for many years.

[quote][quote]they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable[/quote]
Do you really enjoy the current way syllable works?
Perhaps you should make a poll and ask pe user how they enjoy syllable (for exampled compared with the syllable of 3 years ago).[/quote]

As I said before, we don't enjoy Syllable anymore. This is not a one-way street. Have you ever considered that the attitude of project members can be detrimental to the situation of the people who do the work?

[quote]Don't you realize that most syllable fans (or ex-fans) a quite unhappy with the current situation?
Or is it irrelevant for you that other are unhappy with the current situation, as long as you like the current situation?[/quote]

Again, I don't like it at all. You are making incorrect assumptions based on your own opinion. As I said before, I am working full-time on improving Syllable's situation. This includes providing advanced communication systems to the project and for the past year, working almost full-time on our public web communication. If my best isn't enough to convince some people, then there's nothing else I can do, is there?

You seem to want to change the fundamental nature of the Syllable project. You're fully free to do that, because this is open source. However, you should start your own project if you really want to do it differently.
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Rohan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with [b]cipi[/b]. Now very hard to get proper information about direction of developing. For example I was wondered why not all developers use AltME, but after some time I had understand that some of them simply do not know nothing about AltME! Look like cipi one of them.
Kaj maked plans to keep up communication with people with AltME, but how it's can be done if most of people do not know nothing about it.
Also new users will not spend time to learning how to work with AltME, getting account for it and spending time to looking at forum latest news about direction of developing. They need simple way to get info. Without it would very hard to get noobs interesting in project.
Kaj, cipi do now ask you to set down and write blog system from scratch. We could use any of existents Bloging CMS. News on main site is not enough for information about developing. I can help with upping small Blog engine, should it have separate domain name, or present hosting support PHP?
Also i don't satisfied about main syllable.org navigation, but now I can't call for your designers knack. I hope that in one day we will get webmaster to team. You already asked about what I don't like in present design, I can steadily say what exactly wrong, but usability far from perfect. With latest changes it's become better, but not ideal.

Also I don't like our present forum structure all maked a muddle of things.
I suggest next forums structure:

[quote]-News
-General
-Applications
-Porting Applications
-Network
-Drivers
-Documentation
-Design
-Support
-Bugs[/quote]
I think it much better, and don't make culch as now.


P.S. Cipi, would you like to join in AtlME?
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dmitry, you are in AltME, you can discuss anything you want with us and you do. If that doesn't satisfy you, there's nothing more we can do for you. I think you mean that we say no to you sometimes. We also say no to other people sometimes, and I think this is the basis for some people being disgruntled. There's nothing we can do about that, or we would have to throw out Syllable's ideals. Syllable is a project with a vision, and that vision is in particular to create better technology than other open source projects. That means we have to operate in a different way, in any case not in the way of average open source projects that yield the average results that we are dissatisfied with. Putting technical decisions up for democratic votes, for example, would inevitably lead to average decisions when our community grows. As long as it is small, it may well even lead to inferior decisions. This is a simple matter of statistical mathematics. In that way, the whole Syllable project would be pointless.

I have said this many, many times now, but we are working towards integrated communication systems, on top of Syllable, that will, among many other things, allow blogging to public websites. However, just like Syllable is not finished and we can't possibly finish it in the blink of an eye just because people want it to be finished, we are not there yet with the communication and other infrastructure systems, either. I'm working full-time on them, where full-time is defined as way more than day-job full-time, so there's no way I could possibly do more. This is no reason at all that people can't do these things. I just set up an official Russian website for you for translation at your request. You also have your own websites. I have told you before and I will tell you again now: if you think Syllable needs some extra public service and you are not satisfied with our time plan for it, you are fully free to offer it to the community yourself. Just don't expect the overworked core developers to do it for you and change our schedules for it.

Also, can we please get past the is-too, is-not games? I have told all of you many times how we have greatly increased Syllable's popularity in the past year. All our hard work is exactly aimed at fixing the problems we had in the past attracting new people. What point is there in keeping denying this?
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cau0730
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaj wrote: [quote]You seem to want to change the fundamental nature of the Syllable project. You're fully free to do that, because this is open source. However, you should start your own project if you really want to do it differently.[/quote]

Why don't you fork since that is what you did when you came to Syllable? You took a perfectly good project and ruined it with delusions of grandeur.

Kaj wrote: [quote]Just don't expect the overworked core developers to do it for you and change our schedules for it[/quote]

Oh you mean all three of you. That is a nice set of core developers. It looks like your plan to isolate Syllable is working fairly well.

Kaj wrote: [quote]I have told all of you many times how we have greatly increased Syllable's popularity in the past year.[/quote]

Yeah with the Linux crowd cause of Syllable Server, but most people won't deny that we are/were nuts taking on two very separate projects that even dedicated teams of 20+ would have a hard time with. Also wasn't it you that wanted to include a moffia/mob of some kind??? I am sure I can find that on my Altme logs if you want

I say to anyone if you decide on forking email me privately cause I am looking for a project to be a part of and I will gladly come along for the ride. My private email is [email protected][/quote]
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rest my case.
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Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cau0730"]Also wasn't it you that wanted to include a moffia/mob of some kind??? I am sure I can find that on my Altme logs if you want[/quote]

Yes, and the Yakuza. It's well known that organised crime syndicates make great Open Source developers. Sadly they couldn't agree with the Russian Mafia and the Colombian drug barons ended up having everyone killed. So we're still stuck with just three core developers.

Honestly Rick, you're making pretty serious allegations. I suspect I know what it is you're thinking of and it was nothing to do with Syllable, I can assure you. You might want to talk to Flemming and ask him to jog your memory before you carry on with this rubbish...
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cipri
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]You seem to want to change the fundamental nature of the Syllable project.[/quote]

What is the fundamental nature of syllable? That you are the king of Syllable?

I just made a few suggestions how (in my opinion) it would be possible to have a better "climate" and performance.
And you suggest me to fork Syllable? Should this be the fork of the fork?

Perhaps a fork would be indeed a good idea. In the fork we could implement the ideas and the work of Jonas, and we could concentrate on the GUI and user experience. And the improvements that are made by syllable that are related to the kernel and drivers , can be used in the fork.

My current impression is, that kaj is more working on builder, syll server and other administrative work. So, nu major GUI work. And Vanders is also more working on drivers. As I see only Morph is doing improvements to libsyllable.

That could mean that the fork would have the same hardware support as syllable, but a more advanced gui.
And after each syllable release, the next day we can release the fork.

Perhaps we should talk in another thread about a possible fork.

I don't know if it would be really a good idea to fork, perhaps we should make a poll and ask to see what the user a thinking about that idea.
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Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2201
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cipri"][quote]You seem to want to change the fundamental nature of the Syllable project.[/quote]

What is the fundamental nature of syllable? That you are the king of Syllable?[/quote]

See above in this thread for statements from Vanders and me.

[quote]I just made a few suggestions how (in my opinion) it would be possible to have a better "climate" and performance.
And you suggest me to fork Syllable? Should this be the fork of the fork?

Perhaps a fork would be indeed a good idea. In the fork we could implement the ideas and the work of Jonas, and we could concentrate on the GUI and user experience. And the improvements that are made by syllable that are related to the kernel and drivers , can be used in the fork.

My current impression is, that kaj is more working on builder, syll server and other administrative work. So, nu major GUI work. And Vanders is also more working on drivers. As I see only Morph is doing improvements to libsyllable.[/quote]

It is clear that some people don't appreciate our efforts and accomplishments from the derogatory comments that are being made about them, despite our statements and evidence to the contrary. My answer to this ill will is to challenge people to try to do the work we do. I'm confident this would teach them a number of valuable lessons about our position.

[quote]That could mean that the fork would have the same hardware support as syllable, but a more advanced gui.
And after each syllable release, the next day we can release the fork.

Perhaps we should talk in another thread about a possible fork.

I don't know if it would be really a good idea to fork, perhaps we should make a poll and ask to see what the user a thinking about that idea.[/quote]

In the apparent absence of trust, I can only point out that you are ranting against both the project leader and the most productive contributor. It's totally up to you to decide whether this is a smart idea.
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Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cipri"]And the improvements that are made by syllable that are related to the kernel and drivers , can be used in the fork.[/quote]

What improvements would those be? You don't seriously believe either Kaj or myself would continue to work on Syllable if there was a major fork, do you?

Even if that did happen eventually the forks would diverge: who would maintain the forked kernel, and system libraries, or applications like Webster, Whisper or Builder? Currently all of these are done by either myself or Kaj.

As Kaj said, some people appear to seriously underestimate the amount of work that we do. I'd be more than happy for someone else to take on the task of maintaining Whisper or Webster but so far I have not found a single person who is both willing and able to do so. With the exception of Anthony I am not aware of anyone who is capable of maintaining Glibc or the system libraries such as PThreads. Even I don't believe I am qualified to even maintain the kernel in it's current state, so who else will do it?

I doubt many people here even have the slightest idea just how much hardware I've accumulated over the years, much of it at my own expense, just to test and develop Syllable on. Just replicated my incomplete collection of test rigs would take someone else years.

Maybe Kaj has the right idea: perhaps someone should step into our shoes for a little while and try to organise just one release of Syllable. Then you can decide if it's as easy as it seems from the outside?
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