Syllable Forum Index Syllable
Syllable Forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Wailing Wall
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Off-topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mask of Destiny



Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably should stay out of this as I haven't really contributed much to Syllable other than hot air and it seems there's already plenty of that to go around, but I can't resist.

[quote="Kaj"]The reason that I have made few changes and additions to it so far is that we haven't needed them yet, so other work takes priority. ORCA is fine for what we're using it for. By definition we can't use it beyond what it's capable of, and if we want to, we need to improve it for it. So there is an open source interpreter, it works, we're using it, I'm very pleased with it, and it's being maintained according to our specific needs.[/quote]
I would argue that one of the things Syllable needs most right now is more software with a Syllable GUI. The fact that the C++ is the only viable language for producing those applications is a bit of an obstacle to that right now.

Obviously switching to another language that's being more actively maintained isn't going to make this problem go away since those languages don't have libsyllable bindings either, but at the same time it's somewhat disingenuous that there hasn't been a need for many changes yet. Beyond the bindings issue, the ORCA implementation is quite incomplete by the admission of it's own web site and unless I'm looking at the wrong repository, there don't appear to have been any commits for a year. It might be fine for Packager and whatever else you're using it for, but I have to wonder if it's really adequate for general purpose use as the official "scripting" language of Syllable.

Even if it is adequate for now, how are you going to have time to maintain it when more changes are required? I was under the impression that you're already quite busy with Syllable itself.

[quote="Kaj"]Syllable is not at all delayed due to ORCA.[/quote]
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I seem to remember at least one person had expressed interest in working on a graphical installer for Syllable. As I remember it they were rebuffed as the plan is to write the installer in ORCA which can't currently do anything graphical on Syllable.

[quote="Kaj"]I also need to stress again that we will not be integrating REBOL the interpreter with the AppServer and that the considerations for using AGG in the AppServer and for using ORCA are separate[/quote]
Are they really that separate? Would integrating the REBOL host environment (well part of it at least) with the appserver even be on the table if ORCA weren't the official scripting language of Syllable? Would the argument for AGG been nearly as strong if the plan wasn't to replace the appserver protocol (the rendering part anyway) with GOBs and use the code from the REBOL host environment which uses AGG to render those GOBs ?

[quote="Kaj"]even though their combination leads to the full integration we have always aimed at.[/quote]
Assuming someone ports ORCA to the open host environment.

As for Syllable Server, I'm still not convinced it's necessary or even helpful. It might have brought some more web traffic, but I haven't seen much benefit to the project beyond that. Yes small office users will probably need a server and some home/home office users will too, but is the Syllable kernel really unsuitable for that task? We're not talking about huge corporations with data centers filled with high end servers with fiber channel storage or other exotic hardware. I'd wager most of the users in this category are using either desktop machines or servers that are practically desktop machines in a rack mount case. Yes there are some reliability issues with the kernel and/or AFS, but those need to be fixed in order for Syllable to be a suitable desktop OS as well.

Kaj, I have a lot of respect for the time and effort you and Vanders have put into Syllable over the years. Despite my disagreements with you on certain things, I still think Syllable is the best and most viable alternative OS. If anyone is in a position to provide the vision for the project it's either you or Vanders (or both), but if you're going to be an effective visionary you're going to need to do a better job of getting the people who are interested in helping with the project to share your vision. Part of getting that buy-in is to make people feel like their ideas have value. I agree that running Syllable as a democracy would be a bad idea, but that doesn't mean that you can't solicit input from the community and it doesn't mean you can't look for value in other people's suggestions even if you disagree with their idea as a whole. You can disagree with someone without being dismissive.

This came off a lot angrier than I originally intended, but I'm going to post it anyway. Hopefully it won't do more harm than good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2204
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points, but we've gone over them before. At least they give a much-needed balanced account of the issues. The problem is, I strongly have the feeling there's nothing we can say or do right now to change anybody's opinions. As you say, Vanders and I formulated a vision, and we're executing it. Some people don't agree with parts of that vision. One of the problems is that different people disagree with different parts. Some people disagree with producing an extra server system based on Linux. Yet, many people have lamented for years that we're not making use of Linux. Some people disagree with using REBOL. Yet, we're regularly complimented by people who find this intriguing, and it is a solution to the long-standing problem you mention of needing bindings for many languages. Some people disagree with using ORCA. Yet, it is the cornerstone of our strategy to unify semantics throughout the system while still keeping the base system open source.

The original problem we encountered with this is that our strategy is apparently so elaborate that people can't see it, despite many efforts of explanation. For the past few years I have been trying to solve this problem by working ever harder, to be able to show people more of the vision, so that they would understand it. This has clearly failed, because people are now interpreting our efforts as pushing through our wishes against the wishes of the community.

Here's why we can't just do what the community wants. "The community" doesn't exist. It doesn't have a singular vision. This is why I push for reciprocity, and I think it should be taken even further. People want us to do stuff they want. I say, this is a volunteer project: it has always been the case that if you want something done, you do it yourself and then promote it yourself. People complain that we don't respect their wishes and efforts, but some people haven't been respecting our efforts, either. If you want us to respect you, start by respecting us. People complain about our vision. I say, let the community formulate a singular critique of our vision instead of the fragmented and often absurd allegations we have seen so far. Then let the community formulate a singular alternative vision that solves the issues better than ours, and defend it. Then find volunteers to execute it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]P.S. Cipi, would you like to join in AtlME?[/quote]
At the moment I really don't want to join in.
(But I must admit I'm a bit curios what people are talking there)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kaj, how often did you impeded us with the sentence: If it's not going to be like that I will leave syllable.
?

I gave only some simple ideea about how I think that syllable could benefit from , and your answer was:
[quote]I'm sorry, but I don't have time at all for these extra tasks, and they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable. [/quote]

Is it not clear from your statement, that your interest is your own "enjoyment" and your interest is not the "enjoyment" of the majority.
You behave like a leader (even if you are not the leader) , but like a leader that is called a dictator.
You even like to speak in name of Vanders, did I misunderstand something, or are you really the press officer of Vanders?

You self-nominated yourself as the "most productive contributor" and you put yourself over the other developers on your own "meritocracy scale". Probably you choose some criteriam , so that regarded to that criteria you would be on the first place. You should understand that it's equal to zero if you put yourself on a certain scale. Everyone can do that.
I really have the impression that you suffer from megalomania, perhaps you have some personal problems and you try to compensate something here wit syllable.

I didn't say much about the pro and contra of the current direction of the development of syllable. This is not my problem. My main problem is how you kaj are treaten the people. You see Arno going, you have no regrets. You see Flemming going, you have no regrets. You see Jonas beeing unhappy, you have no regrets. You see Rick very unhappy and being ready to leave syllable, you have no regrets. You didn't try to analyze the problems to say: ok, they are gone, let's see what the problems were I perhaps we can change something. You have no regrets and no self criticism.
I really have the impression that you really like that they are going, you even encourage them to go.

I recognized some of the current "personell problems" and tried to make a few suggestions , about I think the problem could be solved. And what are you doing ? You tell me to leave and to make a fork.
Before that you said the following:
[quote]You're fully free to do that, because this is open source. However, you should start your own project if you really want to do it differently.[/quote]
Before that, no one was talking about a fork.

[quote] "The community" doesn't exist. It doesn't have a singular vision.[/quote]
Did you ask yourself why? Because you are suppressing everything. When someone is saying something different you tell him to leave or you imped that you will leave. If you thing that one day developers will come to syllable and freely chose to be the slaves of king kaj, than probably you are wrong.

If I read :
[quote]I'm sorry, but I don't have time at all for these extra tasks, and they would certainly kill my enjoyment in Syllable. [/quote]

I really have the impression that our task here in syllable, is to increase kaj's "enjoyment". Like court jester, that must make the king happy.
You are totally careless about the "enjoyment" of the other.
If this is your attitude of "leading" than one day you will lead just yourself (and perhaps even that will be not so easy).
Back to top
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2204
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ciprian, reread this thread. You just keep repeating yourself and ignoring the answers from both me and Vanders, showing your disrespect. I'm really done defending myself. If you want things different, it's you who should defend that change and implement it. And if you can't discuss this without personally insulting me, I have nothing to say to you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ruud



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 66
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:00 am    Post subject: Wailing Wall... Reply with quote

Hey guys;

What the h*ll is going on here?
I was taking leave of absence a few weeks/months and this is what I find, a lot of accusations/defending...
I'm[i][b] really[/b] [/i]sorry to read all this!
Crying or Very sad

I wish I could act as a mediator/negotiator, but I think this is too far over my head [i](if not all of our heads?)[/i].

Please go on with your great work guys, we really need a great [i](but small)[/i] alternative for all existing [i](bloated)[/i] OS'es.

Ruud
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2204
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I'm sorry you have to find us like this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
NecroRomancist



Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally took time to read this thread and it leaves me a bit sad especially considering that during these past days/weeks i've been working in porting and/or bringing applications and libraries for Syllable but it seems that everyone is gone...am i alone here?
I just wish Syllable to move forward, whatever the choices that drive that development are, however in the end we seem to be halting!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2204
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the old hands are still here, even though we are taking a break, because all this has been very hard on us. But just take a look at the number of times the posts on this forum are viewed. Nobody seems to take notice of this, but they roughly doubled last year when we announced our extension of stragegy, and they have roughly doubled again since a few months ago when we released the first production-ready version of Syllable Server. Some posts are read several thousand times: ten times as many as the most popular posts got a year and a half ago.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
NecroRomancist



Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that Kaj, i really do! i just wish people got together and made things move along..Syllable has great great potential,by Syllable i mean the Desktop version, i understand the Server gets more attention because its Linux but the Desktop has the potential to become a viable alternative for Linux..And given the right tools, and basis, porting software its not that even difficult..In the end i just wish things seemed to move along like they did when i first started fiddling with Syllable..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2204
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree. There currently is a weird discrepancy between public perception among some old hands and the real situation of the project. I have to chalk it up to growing pains.

I think it's important now that I give some insight into other statistics, This has only become apparent in the last few weeks, since I've split our main website evenly between Desktop and Server. (By the way, this is another place where the project is only accelerating, not slowing down. But we are only a few, so we have to shift our attention from one domain to the next.) About six times more visitors go to the Desktop subsite than to the Server subsite. On some days, the difference is even a factor ten. Yet, I already told that interest overall, in almost all statistics, has roughly doubled since the release of Server 0.3. A major part in this is that Server 0.3 got us onto DistroWatch and LWN, and besides bringing us respectability, this means many others start linking to us. Thus I can only conclude that the vast majority of people that we attract through the Linux PR machine decide that they're most interested in Desktop.

This is exactly what we aimed to achieve with our strategy. You can read back my interview in the Syllable Newsletter #2 for that. On the other hand, I guess it's only fair to expect these new people to need some time to figure out what they found. They're certainly not going to program for Syllable right away. I think it's also fair to expect that the farther we get in raising our popularity, the more we must reckon with less interested people. There are also some indications that we are getting a lot of visitors from places such as India now - which I always expected, but who can't be expected to mingle freely in our mostly English-language project.

It would be nice if the community could welcome our new members, instead of rolling over ourselves.


Last edited by Kaj on Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
NecroRomancist



Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes we are few, but that means get smarted and adapt what others have done.. Smile From my point view i'll keep working on Syllable till i can use it as a daily OS..i just don't like feeling that it may not go anywhere.. 0.6.6 when it comes out will be a great release Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But when will 0.6.6 be ready? It has almost past a year sine 0.6.5 if it goes like that it will reach 0.7 (like the old plans) in... 10 years.
NecroRomancist, kaj is probably dreaming or he is really unconscious of the current problems, perhaps because he is so occupied with his server which in fact not many syllable users and developers are happy about. Perhaps Vanders is more conscious about the current problemns and perhaps that's the reason why he is quite still. To me Kaj seems to me like some dictators of communist country that tell every year that their contry is be richest and the most beautiful.... , to me it sounds just like propaganda (or otherwise he is really unconscrious, he's conclusions show clearly that he know nothing about (mathematical) logic ). Or perhaps kaj want to make little children fall asleep.


Last edited by cipri on Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cipri"]But when will 0.6.6 be ready?[/quote]

When it's done. We've already said, several times now, there is a serious bug which has introduced a regression and broken the ABI. Anthony has been trying hard to find and correct the cause, but so far he hasn't had any success. I also admit that I haven't done much to help. I'm taking a break (this evening I've been practising building my own model railway track, for example).

[quote]NecroRomancist, kaj is...[/quote]

You can either go back and edit your post or I'll edit it for you. I won't have personal attacks and petty mudslinging.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) I want to know who banned me, and how took the ban away.
2) I edited my post, now it has no declarations that could be false and I'm also not off topic.

Repressing the criticism and unhappiness is not a solution, even the kings of french knew that.

Some Tips for the future
If you ban somebody, say clearly:
Person X has been banned by Y because he offended the rule Z and give a link to rules. And the banned person should have the right for defence( I think that's even some kind of rule of EU for online publications).

------------

Vanders, trully I can understand that you ar tired and need break, but perhaps one day you will agree with me, that it was a bad idea that you let too much power/authority to kaj.
I'm so sorry because I know how much ( and good ) work you put in syllable, and it's going to end like atheos.

You don't need to ban me anymore, I will delete my account.
Back to top
cipri
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I red the FAQ but I still can't find the delete function.
So please you admin should delete my account or tell me how I can do it by myself.
I don't want to be on the syllable memeber-list anymore.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Off-topic All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group