Syllable Forum Index Syllable
Syllable Forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

What is Syllable-like about Syllable Server?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Syllable Server
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:32 pm    Post subject: What is Syllable-like about Syllable Server? Reply with quote

What about the Syllable Server is "Syllable-like"? The only info I have read states that it is actually Linux.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2200
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you call something Linux, the only thing that's really Linux is the kernel. To get the kernel running in a reasonably standard way, there are also a number of support packages that were written specifically for Linux and are thus arguably part of it. However, there are alternatives for several of them, so the choices begin here already. Syllable Server uses a standard support environment including such things as UDev for hardware detection and management, kernel module management and Linux utilities. We use System V style init scripts now, but we're going to replace that with something more modern and simpler in the future, and we're going to try to make it more like Syllable Desktop.

There are also several choices for what is called the toolchain: the C and C++ libraries and software compilation tools. Syllable Desktop uses those from the GNU project, and so does Syllable Server. Most Linuxes do, but the point is that our Linux software collection is the same as Syllable Desktop as much as possible. The build system that we use for compiling software and building both Server and Desktop is created by ourselves and unique.

Then we get into the system tools that can make a Linux unique, for example package management and the accompanying filesystem layout. Again, Server is the same as Desktop here, but Syllable Desktop was already unique in this. We use application directories, where each package is contained in its own subdirectory, and packages are registered into the system by symlinking their files. In general, our filesystem layout is much cleaner and simpler than in other systems. We have our own packagement management tool for this. It is written in ORCA, which is also unique. It is an open-source clone of the REBOL programming language. The official REBOL language is also included in Server. This is not possible in Desktop yet, because REBOL has not been ported to it yet.

When we port our graphical environment to Server, our Linux will be very different from any other. It is already special in that we have integrated DirectFB on top of the framebuffer video device. This is the base on which our own graphical environment will be ported.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Syllable Server & DirectFB Reply with quote

It is good to see someone looking to use DirectFB with their OS.

DirectFB can provide access to GTK for a widget set if desired ([url]http://www.directfb.org/wiki/index.php/Projects:GTK_on_DirectFB[/url]).

I had mixed results with DirectFB -- it would work with some hardware and not with others, depending on what I was attempting to do (e.g. trying to run the GIMP using GTK). But perhaps it could have also been the distro I was using (most recently Ubuntu) or simply the program itself, since it obviously would not have been designed to be run on anything else but an X server.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2200
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The port of GTK to DirectFB is quite old, and it was always incomplete. The same goes for the Qt port. We plan to get some popular applications on Server through XDirectFB.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Syllable Server with XDirectFB Reply with quote

And then I would assume with XDirectFB you could also more easily build a desktop for it on top of a lite window manager.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2200
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that's exactly what's going to be Syllable about it. We're not going to run on top of X11. X is going to be a compatibility box only for legacy software. The same way it is used in Apple's OS X, for example. We are going to use the Syllable AppServer, toolkit (LibSyllable) and built-in window manager, not some existing software stack on top of X.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject: Syllable Server with XDirectFB Reply with quote

So you mean that the built-in window management acts independently of XDirectFB (but not DirectFB itself of course) and does not rely on it in any way?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2200
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. In Desktop, window management is integrated in the AppServer. This leads to less loss of responsiveness compared to scheduling between X11 and a separate window manager.

In Server, we will put the AppServer on top of DirectFB as a graphics backend. DirectFB has some basic window management built in, but we don't need this. However, we may make use of this temporarily to have DirectFB manage AppServer and XDirectFB windows together. The eventual goal is to port XDirectFB to our AppServer, so X11 applications run rootless in Syllable windows.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Syllable Server Windows Management Reply with quote

That sounds very efficient (and clever)...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaj
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 2200
Location: Friesland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Smile Credit for the base architecture must go to AtheOS, our predecessor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kaizendenki



Joined: 07 Oct 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:01 pm    Post subject: AtheOS Reply with quote

I remembered AtheOS from years back and have been following Syllable off and on since its own inception. I have always felt both were fantastic projects.

Lately, I have not been using Syllable in any capacity. However, I am really keen to play around with the server, especially if it uses DirectFB so that I can learn a little bit more about both it and Syllable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bad Sector



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

However since Syllable is a complete OS, instead of a single kernel, why call the new "Linux distro" as "Syllable Server"?

Why not use the Syllable Desktop's kernel?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vanders
The Knights of Syllable


Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bad Sector"]
Why not use the Syllable Desktop's kernel?[/quote]

Servers and Desktops need to do different things. A server needs to concern itself with fast I/O throughput, high reliability and low overhead. A desktop needs to be responsive and as easy to use as possible. There is some overlap and you can make a single kernel that can do both, but sometimes that also means you have to make compromises in the design.

Desktop is a good desktop kernel, Linux is a good server kernel. Adding server class features to the Desktop kernel would be a lot of work and a bit of a waste of time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Syllable Forum Index -> Syllable Server All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group